Rob Horton, a new friend from Southwest Missouri who I met on the blogosphere, has been on an interesting journey the past few years. He is in the business of redefining terms. You’ll never catch this man using the word “Christian” or “Church”. If anyone took seriously the phrase, “You can’t GO to church because you ARE the church!” it would be him! Below is an interview I had with Rob. While this is a long post, please take the time to read through it all - as much of these issues are central to what is mixing in my heart and in the hearts of God’s people all across this country.

When did you know it was time to stop “going to church”? What was that like for you and your family?

This was definitely a process. Throughout my life in the Anointed One (Christ), God has made a variety of things about the reality of being a member of His Body clear to me. My wife and I have gone through a handful of seasons in our married life that we chose to not participate in a traditional system. In retrospect, I believe God was communicating to us that He was more interested in us BEING members of His Body, than investing our lives in the initiation, development, and maintenance of a non-profit organizational system that claims to be a “church”.

We have lived in our present locality for eight years. During this time we have transitioned through four traditional systems. The spring of 2005, God stirred some strong thoughts in my heart with regards to the cooperate aspects of this life. I found myself getting very skeptical about the conventional approaches to Body life. I found myself attracted to thinking of alternatives approaches. In the midst of this stirring, I processed these thoughts and questions with my wife and found that she was experiencing a similar stirring. In May of 2005, we officially disengaged from the system we were involved with at the time: “Fellowship Bible Church of the Ozarks”.

My wife and I had variant views on this new adventure. I found myself saying that I was totally done with being involved with a conventional approach to Body life. My wife preferred to express that we were on a break and exploring alternative options. As our adventure has continued, our understanding of the relevant issues has rapidly evolved. We have progressed from this merely being about an alternative approach to walking out the cooperate aspects of being a lover of Jesus, to seeing that this is truly a matter revolving around living the life God intends for all, versus a life of religious bondage.

When we started this adventure, our children were in a place of emotional disengagement regarding the children’s program at “Fellowship”. Therefore they had zero resistance to the thought of not continuing our involvement. In many ways I believe this adventure has been very beneficial for our children. My wife and I have been more acutely aware of the responsibilities we carry with regards to encouraging their Spiritual development. Our children are getting a more accurate understanding of Body life, and they are being raised free from much of the destructive religious garbage that many children are exposed to in Sunday schools all over our nation.

What are the central issues (i.e. important concepts and components) to living a life outside church walls? What derails us from these issues ( i.e. prevents us from fully actualizing the potential of life outside church walls)?

To accurately address this question I would like to start by defining terms. What many in our culture refer to as “churches”, I am now referring to as religious systems. The facilities they gather in, I am referring to as religious gathering facilities. So when I read this question, I read: what are the essentials of loving Jesus liberated from religious systems.

First, It is difficult for me to address this question without thinking of the words of Jesus to Mary: “only one thing is needed,” (Luke 10:42). The sad reality is that those of us who profess to be lovers of Jesus, and make claims about having the Spirit of Jesus residing within us, have a multitude of conceptions regarding what this “one thing” is. I would like to suggest that the one thing needed is a relationship of love with Jesus. Jesus spoke of a Day when he would say to some who professed to be His followers: “depart from Me, I never knew you.” In relation to this tragedy I think of the words of Paul: “whoever loves God is known by God,” (1 Cor. 8:3) and “If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be set aside for destruction,” (1 Cor. 16:22). Needless to say, regardless of system involvement or lack of involvement, the essential matter is that we are in a relationship of love with Jesus. I would like to give this reminder; such a relationship of love is available to all and is not grounded in our own efforts to achieve, but upon the foundation of a humble reception of the Creator’s awesome love. “We love because He first loved us,” (1 John 4:19).

Second, I believe one of the essentials that God is communicating to us via this liberation is a recovery of mutuality. The two class system of religion has been a great hindrance to the health of God’s Gathering. A return to mutuality will help us discover a more accurate perception of what God intends for certain functions that have been hijacked by clericalism. This liberation will lead people towards rethinking the use of expressions like: “Billy Bob is my pastor”.

Lastly, I believe a component of this liberation will be an increase in the visible manifestation of the Body’s indivisible unity. I believe we will see an increase in the rejection of all forms of sectarianism. Jesus lovers will rethink participating in lifting various denominational banners. I believe the banner of Jesus will be lifted high and all possible alternative banners will be discarded.

I would imagine that the barriers for Jesus lovers entering more fully into this liberation are manifold. Some may lack confidence in their own ability to be led by God’s Spirit. Some in the clerical class may not be prepared to trust God to be their provider. Some may lack the ability to see that the system they have been raised in is actually a hindrance to the Body life God intends for His people. Some are merely in bondage to a very limited deistic world view that hinders them from trusting that Jesus is actually able to manage and govern His own Body.

In a natural, more organic expression of living in God’s Kingdom (and outside Churchianitity) how do we interact with those still in the “system”?

I will answer this question from a personal perspective, that is, I will describe how I interact with those who are still in union with a religious system. First, I like to think about this matter in relationship to locality. I believe God recognizes locality and imparts His affection to us for the localities that He brings us into. I presently identify the locality that God has presently placed me in as the locality of Springfield, Missouri. I reside in a smaller community called Republic, but my locality interactions include Springfield and the other surrounding communities. Thinking with a locality framework, I find myself concerned with the Spiritual health and development of the portion of God’s Gathering that resides in the locality that God has presently placed me. This does not mean that I limit my care to only my locality, but I merely recognize that my primary sphere of service is to and with those within the locality God has presently placed me in.

The locality of Springfield, Missouri is a major stronghold of religion. Not only religion, but the nastiest religion on earth, the religion that professes to represent Jesus and His teachings. This locality is flooded with religious systems and religious gathering facilities. When my family and I first arrived here, my intention was to get a M.A. degree in Theological Studies at the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, with the intention of going on to St. Louis University for a Ph.D. in Historical Theology. I did not claim to be A.G., but we did end up for a season at the areas largest A.G. system: “James River Assembly”. We have also been involved in “New Life Church“, “Republic Calvary Chapel”, and “Fellowship Bible Church of the Ozarks”. I share this to testify that I am confident that many of these systems contain quality lovers of Jesus, and that I consider these lovers of Jesus to be my local Spiritual siblings.

As one who has recently been awoken to the religious bondage that the Gathering of God is in, I am still sorting out the most beneficial way to interact with those who are not yet on this road of liberation. As I have stated earlier, to me this is not merely a matter of formal and informal approaches to “doing church”. To me this is a matter of God’s Gathering missing out on the life He intends for us. This is a matter of those who profess to be followers of Jesus misrepresenting the unity and indivisible nature of the Body of the Anointed Jesus. My present perspective on these matters does not make me very system friendly or system neutral.

I continue to endeavor to be neutral with regards to system involvement itself. I am open to the possibility that God can lead some of my Spiritual siblings to participate in these systems for a variety of reasons. About six months ago, I was open to the possibility of promoting small groupings that would gather on this ground of system neutrality. I have recently discovered that such groupings appear doomed to fail. Many Jesus followers that have just begun down the road of religious liberation are interested in sorting out this liberation with others. It is very difficult to share this process with those who are still interested in promoting and defending religious systems. I believe gatherings in the name of Jesus ought to be open to Spiritual siblings who are involved in religious systems, but I believe that it is most beneficial to be upfront with these people that in a healthy gathering environment religion will be identified as the elephant dung that it is!

To conclude this question I would lean on the “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I believe it would be most beneficial to treat those involved in religious systems with respect and communicate to them that we believe in their competency to be led by God’s Spirit. I believe it would be most advantageous for us to permit God to be God in their lives. I believe our interactions ought to be in step with God’s Spirit. I believe we can have liberty to communicate with all Jesus followers the matters that God is stirring in our hearts. I do not believe we need to be ashamed or fearful to communicate the liberty and love that God is opening our eyes to. It may be a possibility that others will witness in our lives the freedom and love that they have always longed for.

What is the place of evangelism, church planting/multiplication, and strategic growth in this new way of viewing life in the faith?

Let me tackle evangelism first. Let me start by giving a stab at a definition of evangelism. Basically, I perceive evangelizing as Good News (evangel) sharing. The forthcoming of the Good News categorizes humanity into two parties: the receivers and the resisters. The receivers are those who yield to the invitation God extends to us to come into a loving relationship with Jesus. The resisters are those that continue to resist the wooing of the Spirit to be reconciled with the Creator. Reception of the Good News transforms the recipient into a living representative of the Good News. Jesus lovers represent the reconciled life that God is offering to all. I think it is beneficial to see evangelism first as something we are, that is, we are living representatives of the Good News.

As we grow in sensitivity to the voice of the Spirit of God in our lives, God will likely present us with opportunities to participate with Him in communicating the Good News to others. This communication may be manifested in a myriad of ways.

Our liberation from religion frees us to share the Good News without mixing it with the religious packaging. We are free to point out to others that this Good News is about Jesus. Churchianity tends to invite people into a relationship with Jesus and than quickly buries that relationship under a pile of religious obligations.

With regards to “church planting”, I find the phrase to be very difficult to redeem. I have attempted to, and have even asked for help from others, but I have yet to do it. First, I am back to a place where I do not use the term “church”. I translate ekklesia as gathering. Secondly, I do not see “church planting” as an accurate description of the activity that Paul participated in and many claim to be emulating. I think a more accurate description of what Paul was engaged in doing as he traveled throughout the Roman Empire sharing the Good News, would be something along the lines of: “Jesus representation”. It is true that Paul would encourage members of the Gathering of God in specific localities to relate to one another as Spiritual siblings within the context of their locality. I believe that it is within the context of locality that we see the Gathering of God expressed as the gatherings of God.

A contemporary emulation of Paul’s activities would likely involve a team of Jesus lovers traveling to localities that God places on their collective heart. Once they arrive at the locality, the hope is that they would discern what redemptive service God is doing in the locality and discover opportunities to participate in that service. As people come into loving relationships with Jesus, the team would likely be available to assist in encouraging their development as well as encouraging these Jesus lovers to relate with one another in an appropriate manner, that is, a manner that speaks of their corporate relatedness.

I believe being “fruitful and multiplying” tends to be the natural byproduct of a love relationship with Jesus. The question is what does this multiplication look like? Does the multiplication involve resisters transforming to receivers and the Gathering of God expanding? Or does the multiplication look like small groupings begetting more small groupings? I presently lean in the direction that we will likely see both. The challenge we face is whether we will trust this multiplication to God and allow it to unfold as He sees fit or will we fall back into applying the measures of control that we are so familiar with from our experiences in the World of Religion.

I am all for strategy if it is coming from Jesus. I believe the order is likely burden, vision, and strategy. God gives us a burden for something He desires us to participate in. God gives us a vision of what He desires to see accomplished. Lastly, God gives us a strategy for promoting the accomplishment of that vision.

What does a “vibrant family of Jesus” look like?

This question raises another issue that I think we need to rethink, that is, the issue of boundaries. The family of God includes all in a relationship of love with Jesus. Does that family parse down into a multitude of families? I don’t think so. I believe it is one family, multiple localities. For me the more appropriate question is “what does a vibrant local expression of the family of God look like”? This may be a short cut of an answer, but oh well, the answer is Jesus. Just as God is transforming us individually to the likeness of Jesus, this is also true of us corporately.

Where do you think God is leading the North American portion of Christ’s bride?

I think a great movement of liberation is gathering momentum. I think God is liberating us from the bondage and hindrance of religion. I think this liberation will contribute to God expressing Himself through us in ways that will substantially impact the resistance of the resisting ones in our localities. I believe we are on the verge of an explosion of growth.

Last 5 posts by Mark

• God is Wholly - October 2nd, 2008
• The Great Moderation - September 30th, 2008

This entry was posted on Wednesday, August 23rd, 2006 at 2:36 pm and is filed under Blogosphere, Conversations, Doing and Being, Ecclesiology, Mega-Church, Organic Church, Spiritual Journey. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.